Podcast notes – Sam Kazemian (stablecoin founder) on Bankless: “Curve is like WordPress of stablecoins”

These notes are a bit old (from April 2022). I thought I’d already published them, but couldn’t find it on my blog or twitter so…

Guest: Sam Kazemian
Host: Bankless

Sam got into crypto via GPU mining
Worked on wikipedia competitor
Started Frax Finance

Got in crypto 2013, UCLA student, mining dogecoin
One of first to signup for ETH newsletter in 2014 (Vitalik talking about counterparty and colored coins)

First “stablecoin whitepaper” was Robert Sam’s seignorage whitepaper
Two token system – stablecoin + share token / volatile token to represent seignorage / cashflow

Click to access A-Note-on-Cryptocurrency-Stabilisation-Seigniorage-Shares.pdf

There’s a WordPress of stablecoins now – cookie cutter playbook, infra is there
Will be Cambrian explosion for next 12 months

Stablecoins are one of 3 multi trillion dollar crypto narratives
1. Bitcoin
2. ETH
3. Stablecoins
Each are unique assets

Tells short story about central banking – from JP Koenig blog
https://jpkoning.blogspot.com/2018/03/more-fiatsplainin-lets-play-fiat-or-not.html

USDT
Start with each piece of paper has $1 USD behind them
Then limit or reduce redemption
Then say don’t have 1:1 redemption, but have these other assets

Frax created concept of fractional algorithmic stablecoin
Never broken peg (1cent plus or minus from $1)
Billions of dollars of onchain liquidity
Frax is partial claims on hard money

RSA: Type 1 Hard money > Type 2 Claims on hard money > Type 3 Fiat money

Frax launched with Frax and FXS
Last week launched price index stablecoin
Frax is $1 stablecoin
FXS is governance token (named after Robert Sams whitepaper)
Algorithmic = expand or contract based on minting or burning FXS
Some people would say 100% collateralized, just part of collateral is FXS (but kinda circular bc it’s kinda like being backed by itself)
Hard assets / reserve = DAI, USDC, CRV emissions, protocol liquidity
Frax is mintable on 12 chains, lots of L2s

versus UST (all algorithmic, aside from Luna tokens and recent BTC purchases)
UST moving more toward fractionalized with recent BTC and AVAX purchases
Only difference is collateral ratio

Maker DAO started with fundamentally sound reserves = $1 stablecoin backed by $2 worth of other assets
Over time, everyone’s learned it’s extremely difficult to issue a USD stablecoin without having lots of actual USD / hard assets
Even Terra works closely with Jump and other market makers
If you want to autonomously be a Central Bank (Terra, Maker, Frax are the big 3) – you need hard assets to do it

When redemption window is open (1/3 of one cent off) – can redeem, get a mixture of assets – get USDC and FXS minted at current collateral ratio
So even last redeemers will still get equal pro-rata shares of the different assets as everyone else – so no benefit to redeeming first
And as the peg is off by 1/3 of one cent+, the collateral ratio increases

Entirely onchain, extremely decentralized approach
No legal entity – there’s no off chain assets

Frax takes some of algo stablecoin scalability (Terra), but reduce risk of bank run / crash (Maker)

Lots of stablecoins will move toward Frax model – question is what collateral ratio?
Maker is 150% (?)
Frax is 85%
Terra is 10-20% BTC
People focus too much on collateral ratio and not enough on ability to keep the intended $1 peg

Terra really good at strategy, adoption, also a lot of market making activity from people with interest in Terra / Luna succeeding – eg, Jump Capital – other people with billions of dollars to ensure the $1 peg
No market maker is willing to do this without incentives
Thus all onchain stablecoins like Maker and Frax need USDC

Frax has 40s% USDC / Tether exposure, less than Maker at ~50-60%
Trying to wean off USDC / Tether

Mim – overcollateralized model – tried to work with them but had Sifu episode
Used for a lot of degen leverage
Great ex of overcollateralized – but still risky!
Risk is summation of all market activity

“Frax is as safe as DAI”

“UST is way more safe than people think” – lot of people have very strong interest in UST peg – difficult to quantify, but MUCH safer than the idea that “there’s nothing here” – if actually true they would’ve collapsed in those crazy downturns / dips

Big 3 – UST, Frax, Dai

What drives FXS price?
Can be staked as veFXS – Curve model – 1 week to 4 years – can’t be transferred – then have veFXS balance – get cash flow from profit of Frax market operations
APR is 4.7%, can vary from 3-20% depending on profitability and yield opportunities – entirely cashflow
Entirely self sufficient actual profit, not token emissions

Frax has $2.7B supply – ~$200M of annual revenue

What is FPI?
Second stablecoin in Frax ecosystem (after Frax itself)
First one pegged to CPI of federal gov’t
Custom Chainlink oracle – designed with Chainlink and Vault (Volt?) projects
Worked on it for one year
Grand vision – evolution of stablecoins will look like evolution of central banking – eventually will peg to our own definition of exchange rate, not some external exchange rate
That’s what FPI is – “final evolution of onchain stablecoins”
Eventually weight of basket of goods for CPI will be entirely onchain – not reliant on government or centralized data source
Today was highest CPI reading in 40 years – 8.5%
Can mint FPI with Frax
Eventually FPI can float against dollar

Curve wars / Curve4 pool
New Curve stablecoin liquidity pool
Removing liquidity from DAI (3 pool) and point towards 4 pool (UST, Frax, USDC, Tether)
Talked to Do for awhile – not a surprising move – one of smartest and most ambitious guys in space
Known Do since 2018, when he started Terra, he’s very good strategist
Currency success = how many people using it, how much economic activity it supports, and a mixture of uses is important

Curve is like WordPress of stablecoins or pegged assets (stables, ETH & stETH)

Nothing wrong with Maker / DAI’s strategy – if they wanted to do DAI 4-pool, Frax would work with them like all the other stables
They take a thorough, slow, methodical approach to governance
Maker isn’t as interested because they don’t see Curve at same importance as Frax or Terra
Frax and Terra are aggressive about growth – want your currency anywhere there’s economic activity

Curve is more than just a DEX, it’s an algorithmic savings account, get yield on it
Some people think it’s just a Ponzi game but they’re mistaken
Frax has largest CVX holdings, Terra also has a lot, but Maker doesn’t
4-pool will be massive when it gets going
Just launched on Arbitrum, Fantom and Polygon are already available
“Will be the savings account for very large part of crypto industry”

Stablecoin pegs are stronger together – focused on positive sum innovation

Frax has been spot on with thesis of fractional algorithmic stablecoin, and now FPI (first CPI-pegged stablecoin)
In 12-24 months, will be consolidation around 3-4 decentralized stablecoins
Are BTC / ETH better as inflation resistance or as “central bank reserves” in crypto
Do Kwan kickstarting BTC as gold narrative, Frax doing same for ETH
So inflation resistance crowd will be captured by stablecoins like FPI, and BTC / ETH will be perfect reserves

And this is a “fractional crypto stablecoin, anime style” according to Stable Diffusion:

Some recent reads and my brief commentary (Shein, Areopagus, Do Kwon, Mr Beast)

Great weekly newsletter, a sort of Western cultural history buffet:
https://culturaltutor.com/areopagus

Mr. Beast is the new Disney. Attention = money and Beast is the king of YouTube attention and has proven people will attentively follow him into other products even if it’s as dumb and unrelated as chocolate bars
https://www.axios.com/2022/10/25/mrbeast-youtube-fundraising-merch-restaurants

Surprise — that opaque Chinese company with the insanely cheap clothing is opaque for a reason and pays its workers insanely cheap(ly)
https://www.thecut.com/2022/10/shein-is-treating-workers-even-worse-than-you-thought.html

I also took notes on this interview and…yes. Impressive levels of self-denial
https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/2022/10/19/do-kwons-beautiful-dark-twisted-fantasy-world
my notes: https://kevinhabits.com/podcast-notes-do-kwon-on-unchained-even-to-this-day-im-proud-of-work-we-didvalues-we-tried-to-defend/

What do words like “capitalism” and “free market” even mean anymore (aware that I sound like a libertarian purist curmudgeon here)
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/one-bank-makes-stunning-discovery-bank-japans-ycc-broken-and-soon-entire-jgb-market-will

Podcast notes – Do Kwon on Unchained – “Even to this day, I’m proud of work we did…values we tried to defend”

Note: I tried my best to objectively capture what Do Kwon said / meant, but I do think he’s an unremorseful criminal who should be in jail. So clearly I am biased.

Guest: Do Kwon (DK) – Terra / Luna founder
Host: Laura Shin – Unchained

Since last year, hasn’t been living in South Korea (SK)

Doesn’t understand how Red Notice works very well, has asked for clarification but hasn’t heard back

Disappointed that SK prosecutors are attempting to create new regulations through enforcement actions

DK hasn’t seen copy of the arrest warrant; Laura mentions the PDF is posted online, but DK says he hasn’t seen that PDF

“We are cooperating” with all the document requests (from SK govt)

Laura: Are you in Singapore now?
Doesn’t want to talk about his location for personal security – people broke into his apartment building in Seoul (both reporters and private citizens), personal threats

Laura: What about claims that Korean authorities froze $67M in his funds
“Too many things that are not true”
Went through proper procedures to pay residual taxes, hasn’t used KuCoin or OkEx “as far as I can remember”

“LFG only holds 313 bitcoin”
Hired onchain analysis company, will provide report shortly to give more clarity – should be “in next couple weeks”

Laura: Do you feel any remorse?
“Got carried away”, should have held to stricter standards
In personal life “quite a bit of introvert”
Community pull for him to be more frank, transparent
Over time Twitter became his medium to do this
“Largely for entertainment value”
“It is quite cringe” – worthwhile to keep up for record keeping and posterity

Laura: many people lost life savings, Taiwanese man who committed suicide, what do you want to say to them?
“My responsibility alone”
Hundreds of thousands if not millions who used Terra – “I own up to that responsibility fully”
“It’s not easy to live with”

In the process of people dealing with this grief, there were lots of accusations of fraud / theft — “important for them to have correct representation of what happened”

Crypto founder for last 5 years
“Even to this day, I’m proud of work we did…values we tried to defend”

Laura: SBS News reported Do Kwon moved Singapore profits to Virgin Islands; family used proceeds to purchase apartment
“I do own an apartment in Seoul”
Moved TFL corporate structure from Singapore to BVI, no funds were transferred

People who came on Korean shows that claimed to be Terra developers “were literally just interns”
Launched UST early 2021, at that time 20% was not extremely high yield, lots of 3-4 digit Defi yields
Internally, there were questions during launch that the yield wasn’t attractive enough!

Terra’s whitepaper doesn’t describe tokenomics – intentionally written in high level academic way – why decentralized algo important for industry
Didn’t initially consider need to have a stablecoin reserve

All-time high for UST/USD was $1.09
Would use SDT reserves to bring down UST price
Also made SDT stable coins available to ecosystem apps for initial / bootstrap liquidity

Initially used market operations to maintain peg – but gradually became “negligible % of overall volume”
UST became one of largest liquid stable coins, Luna was one of largest PoS networks

Eventual goal was UST would be backed by every large and promising crypto (eg, BTC)

Laura: there’s onchain evidence of cashing out $2.7B into USDT (via MIM), sent to Binance, Huobi, others
“Definitely did sell UST and Luna to fund operations”
“$2.7B or anything to that effect…was not used to cash out or anything like that”

Laura: why continue to claim Chai brought millions of users to Terra, when that arrangement had ended
2020 – Daniel Shin (ex cofounder) left TFL to focus on Chai full-time, while Do left Chai which he also co-founded to focus on TFL
“Consider myself the more active cofounder in building both of those companies”
In terms of Chai, limited visibility into its user data, “I should have been more consistent in how I fact checked numbers”, “definitely shortfalls on my part there”

Laura: Sam Kessler claims that Terra unilaterally re-awarded coins to an investor who lost private key (Translink capital) without discussion
“Terra can’t unilaterally decide to do an upgrade”
“Validator driven process”

Laura: Basis Cash failed, why so confident about Terra still?
Saw TFL as accelerator to create lots of different apps – Pylon (yield), Anchor, Mirror
Initial Anchor team (5-6 people) spent a lot of time yield farming DeFi – Yam, Yearn – DK first got into DeFi through this
These early devs wanted to do implementation of Basis protocol and launch it anonymously
They assumed Rick & Morty pseudonyms – asked him to be “Rick”
“Terra pre-dates Basis Cash”
“Currency failure of developing nation isn’t because monetary policy, it’s because underlying economy is weak”
“Don’t think there’s any underlying problem mechanism wise, it’s because no solid economy built on top”
In terms of Basis Cash, “essentially all I did was join Telegram rooms and shitpost”
“I had no involvement in those things”
“It was an educational experience…why pseudonymous founders makes sense in crypto”
“Basis Cash isn’t something he designed or operated…it’s something he encouraged”

Laura: Have you ever anonymously founded other projects?
“No”

Do’s description of de-pegging event
May 7, Singapore time – UST had de-pegged 2.5%, large trades against Curve LP, depleted pool
Didn’t think it was a serious problem
Over time the disparity got worse and worse
Patterns of large sells against UST
Sentiment was catching on, rumors, runaway situation
Deployed a few hundred $M to market maker, bought a bunch of UST – re-pegged briefly, “then the sells just got worse”
Luna falling, people dumping
War room of OGs, tried to raise fresh capital to buy more UST
Midnight fundraising round – got leaked – even more shorts piled up
Once Luna market cap fell below certain level, the rescue fundraise became untenable

Laura: 5 months later, why no accounting or trading logs of those market makers / peg defense?
“Bound to some confidentiality”
“Lot of transactions… finally in closing phases [on this report to be released]”

“I haven’t personally taken any tokens from TFL from May 2020”

Laura: Monthly unlock tokens (3M+, up to $300M USD value per month) were going to employees / operating expenses?
“Contract obligations and things to that effect”

Laura: After South Korea passport invalidated, what will you do?
“I’m not using it anyway”
“I don’t feel comfortable talking about location”

Laura: When will USDT / USDC disbursements occur?
“Until litigation resolved, not able to distribute tokens”
“Don’t have a lot of clarity on how long process will take”
“Not a refund…more of a goodwill effort” [to re-distribute the 313 BTC they’re still holding]

Laura: How do you feel about direction your life has taken?
“Never about money or fame or success…I like making toys, simply tinkering with things”
“I enjoy building furniture…sometimes cook”
“What happened with Terra wasn’t a scam, it was a massive market failure”
“Believe in need for decentralized stable coins more than anyone else”
“I’m 31 and I would still love to contribute”
“I get to do a lot more engineering”

Laura: Anything you’d do differently?
“Maybe building onchain BTC reserves earlier, more significant”
“Being less aggressive less joking on Twitter”
“Next attempts at decentralized money will look a lot different”
“Without [decentralized money], what are we even doing here?”
“Deeply regretful of how things panned out with UST” but developers need to keep building

Laura: Anything else?
“Working on lots of different things…highly experimental”
“Not working on Luna Classic at all”