Podcast notes – Hasu and Mike on MEV (Bell Curve) – “If a single regulatory regime can make rules in crypto, then crypto has just failed”

Hosts: Hasu and Mike
Hasu – advisor to Flashbots, Lido

MEV value chain
-money from reordering / censoring transactions
any value a privileged actor can extract – eg, Central Bank printing money, can be considered MEV

People use crypto to escape MEV in real world

Should build crypto systems resilient to MEV

Principles in reducing MEV
-more competition = lower fees, less MEV
-more private = harder to extract MEV
-more user control

MEV is invisible – even looking at transaction data in Etherscan, won’t see sandwich attack

Parties:
Users
Wallets
Searchers
Builders
Relayers
Validators

MEV schools
1. Democratizing MEV – hard to minimize MEV, isolate builders role, make it competitive
2. Minimize MEV –

User/wallet layer – order flow auctions – users don’t send to public mempool or block builder, auctions off right to execute your transaction, if there are competing bidders, the price rises, and value goes to user (instead of to MEV capturer)

Mike: “Payment for order flow” – Robinhood offering zero fees, selling order flow to Citadel / hedge funds
Mike: In past, equity brokerages would charge you for trades – now people have opted for free trades / invisible fees (eg, Robinhood)
We can do better in Defi – especially the transparency

World of Cosmos and Ethereum are converging – ETH community has been better at executing
Hard to say in future if X project is ETH or Cosmos project – there’s increasing convergence

MEV accrues to whomever gets to order the transactions
Mike: MEV will accrue to execution layer

L2 sequencers today are centralized – with plans to decentralize – will eventually face same MEV problems as ETH L1
L2s all need PBS (proposer builder separation)

Sequencers today in L2 does 4 things
-receive transactions
-decide on ordering of transactions
-give user a receipt
-send order batch to data availability layer — that’s what creates finality

MEV should not be counted towards security budget — that’s how core devs think about it, want to minimize and not enshrine it
Minimum security should be paid from inflation + base fee

“MEV is very hard to track”

Different forms of MEV
-arbitrage – different prices on different exchanges, or underpriced asset
-sandwich attacks – buy before a user, then sell it to the user at higher price
-liquidations – searchers typically do this

Uniswap V3 – concentrated liquidity – reduced sandwich attacks

Statistical arbitrage – take balance sheet risk, small period of time where you have to hold asset before selling it

Many top Defi traders are also block builders – want to maximize inclusion guarantee, greater control over trading strategy – can make trade at last moment, can see all other transactions and order / cancel them

In systems we build, must make sure they’re not sensitive to latency — otherwise there’s incentive to colocate near each other, more centralization
Phil Daian post on this: https://collective.flashbots.net/t/decentralized-crypto-needs-you-to-be-a-geographical-decentralization-maxi/1385

Turn latency into price / auction, auctions are generally more fair, and price (ability to pay) is easier to decentralize than geographic proximity

Users love Robinhood because good feature is very visible (free trades) and bad feature is very invisible (selling user order flow)

Mike: Optimism and Arbitrum have very different approaches to MEV

“Solana is case study for why to not build low latency blockchains”
1 of 2 Solana block builders is operating liquid staking protocol
If you don’t have robust mempool and fee market design, get a lot of spam
58% of Solana transactions are failed arbitrage transactions

What’s novel in Cosmos —
-Osmosis doing something very interesting – onchain block building and searching
-Noma (sp?) & Penumbra – intent based transaction framework

Mike: Cosmos has very different opinions, diversity of ideas
Hasu: Big drawback is everyone has different validator sets, but as shared security grows, what compromises will be made?

How does regulation bump into MEV?
Crypto is about fair and equitable markets for users with less manipulation and exploitation
Execution on public blockchains is continually improving
Regulators are largely pragmatic

“If a single regulatory regime can make rules in crypto, then crypto has just failed”

Podcast notes – Solana with founder Anatoly Yakovenko – Bankless: $20M valuation for Solana at seed round “was ludicrous”

Guest: Anatoly Yakovenko, Solana founder
Hosts: Ryan Sean Adams and David Hoffman

2017 – was following crypto, wanted to build a faster crypto miner
Family left Soviet Union, saw the devastation of a bad currency and economy

Ethereum demonstrated an application platform

Qualcomm, Perl engineer who helped build platform for all those original mobile games

Mining crypto while building deep learning hardware
Had a eureka moment – encode passage of time as a data structure
At that time, it existed as a “verifiable delay function”
Quit job, met Raj Gokal
Raised $3M in seed, network price at that time was $20M – “thought it was ludicrous” – included Multicoin
5 cofounders, colleagues from Qualcomm
Built single node – was doing 100K+ TPS – prove potential of network
Raised $14M Series A in the “last vapors” of the 2017-2018 market
Competitors during that time were raising $100M+ (eg, Hashgraph)

Censorship resistance is like a communication channel – it guarantees delivery

Wireless protocols create a schedule – from X time to Y time, A gets to talk, then B gets to talk, etc
Very ordered and structured, gets you 100% utilization

Tendermint – 100 validators – each has 1 vote, there’s a known block producer who proposes a block, 2/3 vote on a block

Hired a lot of coworkers from Qualcomm who he worked with for 10 years

Solana thesis – smart contracts are good for finance, and finance depends on info propagating as fast as possible around the world
Solana data can move as fast as a piece of news travels

Currently ETH validators have same bandwidth requirements
With sharding the requirements will be reduced

Trustlessness comes from full nodes that can validate

Bitcoin and Ethereum see themselves as money – what about Solana?
Store of Value is a social construct, a meme, and important not to be tied to a sovereign (a nation)
The function of a token is to prevent spam

In PoS, once all full nodes have finalized, you can’t go back – you can only fork – which is a socially messy process

Store of Value that is awesome can be built on Solana, that can surpass bitcoin

How to bootstrap an ecosystem without piggybacking off Ethereum – was a huge unknown when Solana started

2020 – had 9-10 months of cash left, market crashed, thought they might be done

It was Solana’s second hackathon (Break Point) where he really believed they had something
Quality of builders went up, attendees went up

Solana was worth ~$100M at network launch

Thinks VC branding is dumb – most of the “crypto VCs” in last cycle were simply Ethereum ICO investors

Alameda’s balance sheet leak was first time Anatoly learned about the troubles

Sam had supported Solana a lot – especially saying they’d build Serum on Solana drove a lot of defi and builder interest

Bear market is a purge

Bitcoin supporters said Ethereum was full of mercenaries in early days — same criticism that Ethereum supporters had of Solana

“Getting through this phase sucks for sure”

NFT community is very thriving — second to Ethereum – very proud of it

Exhausted by negative news — want to see wins, see people building cool shit

David: Solana is one of only blockchains after Ethereum that has a second client (Firedancer + Jump)
Anatoly: you’re trading liveness for safety; Ethereum’s goal is 4 clients (can maintain liveness if 1 client goes down)

Still focused on monolithic chain with no sharding

Innovation in next 12-18 mos will probably be more than everything that’s come before in crypto

“Pretty sure” Solana can do more TPS than all ETH L2s combined

Podcast notes – Sam Bankman Fried (FTX and Alameda founder) on Invest like the Best

SBF – founder of Alameda Research, FTX, before that at Jane Street, one of world’s youngest billys

What’s your Truth North?
Day to day – efficient markets, does the risk engine work, does product design make sense (eg, equity markets currently are not 24/7, but it shouldn’t be that way, it’s more a historical artifact)
More generally – philanthropy (effective altruism / utilitarianism), how can I maximize my positive impact on the world

Lots of organizations having lasting impact on long-run future of world, the trillions of people to come after us
What’s become clear is society has no fucking clue what to do about pandemics – not restricted to just one country – even the countries thought to do well initially, economies stalled out, and not clear path forward
What would it have taken for us to be in a much better place?
1. Took a year after covid hit to begin distributing vaccine – could have had it in 2 months
2. Early detection systems, better vaccine production systems, reduced regulatory time for testing / approval

How much is society putting in to prepare better for next pandemic?
“I don’t know…zero?”
Doing things to solve this can save tens of trillions of dollars, and have enormous impact

What’s perfect state of markets?
Start with latency – how low does it need to be to capture most of economic value – as close as possible to release rate of new economic information
Milliseconds is probably enough
NYSE is milliseconds, but then it’s closed overnight, and on weekends and holidays – “which is sort of insane”
Always open is pretty important

Another easy win: Order books should be free and publicly available
That’s whole purpose of exchanges – so why hide it, except for people paying $50M/year – trading firms are paying it
Crypto exchanges – fees come from transactions
Equity exchanges – service is mostly a commodity, so only proprietary stuff is their data
Amount of intermediation is insane – mobile app, clearance custody, prime brokers, equity exchanges – all these intermediaries take fees, slow things down, add tape
Innovation slows down too – if exchange wants to move 24/7, needs everyone else to change too, “weakest link component”

Reasonable trading fee is 1 or a few bps (basis points) – larger fees mean less efficient pricing, less liquidity, less overall economic activity – total net fees not just matching engine fees

Crypto represents a migration to better end state – always on, more transparent, globally accessible

State of fairness in crypto markets today
-most important thing is transparency about transparency (everyone agrees what market structure looks like)
-having a level playing field to start with (it’s still a total mess, but less so than 3 years ago)
-eg in 2017 lots of Japanese got excited about bitcoin, but bitcoin price in Japan was a lot higher than rest of world (10% arbitrage opportunity) – exact opposite of inefficient market
-today these arbs still exist – eg, Coinbase trading higher than Gemini for weeks at a time due to flows – driven by lack of liquidity, idiosyncrasies with some assets (eg, Tether), lack of integration with fiat / banking

How to solve a lot of this?
“Stablecoins” – useful to move within the crypto system
eg, USDC – can move 24/7, fast and on blockchain, remove reliance on wire transfers

How much fiat inflow has actually gone into space?
Higher bound – Crypto market cap = $2.5 trillion (this was an old podcast)
Lower bound – $100B of stablecoins outstanding
Probably $400-500B in actual fiat has invested (20-25% of total market cap)

What will change the ratio – most financial institutions are PLANNING to buy bitcoin at some point – they now have mandates to get involved, but they all say “they’re not ready yet”
Should materialize in next few years
Probably the ratio will get closer to one (of actual fiat inflow to total market cap)

Huge demand for good infrastructure in crypto – exchanges still crashing during busy times

When SBF first entering crypto, hardest part of the crypto trade was the wire transfer
Lots of inefficiencies in traditional financial infra – wire to Nigeria is 10%, credit card fees are 3%
Crypto rails can help fix this – eg, all social data posted immediately on-chain, means a tweet can immediately be liked on Facebook, or a TikTok video can be instantly published to Instagram

If you’re in crypto and you’re not thinking extremely hard about regulation and compliance – you’re making a huge mistake

Must remain dynamic / flexible in long-term planning, to adapt to constantly changing environment

Crypto trades almost as much as US equity ($200B in global daily volume) – but US itself is far behind
Crypto is totally new asset class, born 5 years ago, and now is almost as large as the largest asset classes

Reasonable to find strategic parts of ecosystem to put bulk of regulations – eg, any centralized exchanges, or fiat-to-crypto conversion points
“Take steps in right direction” to protect consumers, detect financial crimes – will address most of large points of concerns, and help crypto ecosystem to thrive

There will be stable coins in world – if US bans them, then it will go to EUR or CNY

Why are derivatives so important for markets?
-in every asset class, there’s more derivatives trading volume – if you don’t need physical delivery, derivatives are more economically efficient
-average trade doesn’t require to get the actual thing (eg, a stock, or gold, or oil)
-so it requires less assets on balance sheets, more efficient markets, lowers capital requirements and transaction costs

What competitive differentiation among exchanges
-cross-margining (eg, FTX allows collateral to applies across multiple assets / trades)

Thoughts on paid acquisition
-most FTX users came from Twitter, from user memes and endorsements
-don’t buy FB / Google ads
-for hardcore traders, product is what drives it
-for new / casual traders, name recognition matters “and we’re way behind on that” (compared to Binance or Coinbase)
-want not just recognition of FTX the name, but create a powerful association
-only a few endorsements matter – should be extremely choosy

Thoughts on user generated asset era
-are books UGC? Sort of, but historically the gatekeepers are bookstores and publishing houses – it’s author UGC, but with bottlenecks and gate keeping
-before, 7 asset managers drove equity markets, now it’s social media and asking friends – Tesla is great example, people taking choices into their own hands
-NFTs are UGC, direct to consumer
-tokens / token economies are flourishing around the world, but not in the US due to regulations
-ultimately it’s good, more efficient markets, more dis-intermediation, and more curation will emerge naturally

Right now, there should be many Layer 1 blockchains, competition among them, to see what emerges
What’s end game that matters the most? 1 billion users using a chain, trillions of dollars using a chain
To get there, need millions of TPS (transactions per second)
You want to maximize composability, even across shards
If you don’t get there, you won’t be primary player to facilitate all the activity that’s required

5-10 TPS is not enough to be general purpose medium, but it DOES allow you to move bitcoin around – “has potentially a large role in the world” – it’s a different thing from ETH or Solana

Most economically efficient thing is single centralized server
Decentralized blockchains have maybe 10K servers? Will always be less efficient
Blockchains will be connection layers – across more efficient / centralized services

What he thinks he’s good at:
number of concepts he can hold in his head, and reason about
make sure not to lose the important threads
-maybe relatively better RAM (flexibility)
-not so good at long-term storage of info and facts

His wealth / fame has changed how people interact with him, but not huge change in his day-to-day life

All the expected value is in the upside tails not in the median outcomes, and you should take that seriously – often the right path is the one that might fail
As world speeds up and becomes wackier, this becomes more and more important
Acknowledge things that sound crazy and unlikely may not play out that way

When he started FTX, he was most optimistic on his team about success – thought it was 20%, team even more pessimistic
But even he was way under-estimating the upside
Straightforward EV analysis was the correct one

Most kindest thing anyone’s done for him: lot of people in effective altruism community have been dedicated and selfless, making personal sacrifices to seek the altruistic upside